Agenda and draft minutes

It was noted that apologies for absence had been received from Councillors D G Cronk and O C de R Richardson.

It was noted that, in accordance with Council Procedure Rule 4, Councillor J P Loffman had been appointed as substitute member for Councillor D G Cronk. 

To receive any declarations of interest from Members in respect of business to be transacted on the agenda.

There were no declarations of interest.

To confirm the notes of the meeting of the Project Advisory Group held on 17 September 2024 (to follow).

The notes of the meeting of the Group held on 17 September 2024 were approved as a correct record and signed by the Chairman.

To receive an overview of project work undertaken during this period.

Members received an overview of work undertaken since the last meeting from the Strategic Project Manager (SPM).   This covered the following areas:

·         RIBA Stage 2 design progression

·         Building massing developed

·         Outline materials strategy

·         Splashpad and inflatables proposals initiated

·         Public engagement and key user group meetings held

·         Review of construction logistics plans and potential retention of facilities

·         Updating capital costs and business case

·         Updating operational matters and continuity of services

RESOLVED: That the update be noted.

To receive a summary following public engagement and feedback from the Key User Design Workshops.

The Development Projects Engagement Coordinator (DPEC) advised that a public engagement exercise had taken place between 23 September and 20 October.  Nine events had been held (including four at Tides and one at Deal’s Saturday market) and over 200 stakeholders such as sporting bodies, town and parish councils, the police, etc had taken part.   A dedicated online ‘microsite’ had also been set up and two design and access workshops had been held.  A total of 977 completed surveys had been received and Officers were confident that they had reached a broad audience, with the highest response being from the 35-44 age group.  69% of respondents supported the construction of a new leisure centre, with 63% indicating that they were likely to use it. 

The key themes that had emerged from the public engagement were:

·         New fitness and gym facilities

·         Slides and fun for children including a children’s pool (given there were limited opportunities nearby)

·         Lane swimming, preferably with a 6-lane pool

·         Low prices and modern equipment

·         Inclusion of a sauna and steam room

·         Provision of a different offer to Dover District Leisure Centre (lane swimming)

·         Provision of school/swimming lessons

·         Accessibility of pool

In response to questions, the SPM advised that work done in 2021 had found that the population of Deal with young families was below the national average and well above average age for the wider population.   It was evident that, whilst the splash pool/leisure provision at Tides was heavily used by families at weekends and school holidays, it was quiet during the week and outside school holidays. 

Mr Richard Thompson (Hadron Consulting) reassured the Project Advisory Group (PAG) that sustainability was a core objective of the project.  Meetings had been held with the key users of the centre, including accessibility groups and swimming clubs, to explain the schemes/options.  The accessibility groups were supportive of the proposals and would be engaged again during some of the future stages.  The SPM added that one of the issues raised during these meetings was the difficulty for wheelchair users of using weighted doors.  The Council would work with accessibility groups to improve the design.  

Whilst the swimming clubs had voiced support for the proposals, they had also been keen to influence the pool depth and profile.  A six-lane pool was their clear preference due to the shortage of lane availability in the district.  Storage and water depth (to teach diving) had also been raised, as had the potential to encourage growth in sub-aqua and water polo clubs with the right facility.   On the latter, Mr Thompson clarified that the pool would not be deep enough for sub-aqua or water polo if either of the existing proposals were taken forward. 

RESOLVED: That the update be noted.

To receive an update on design development, including the 5/6 lane option with toddler splash pad.

Members received an update on design from Hadron Consulting.  Although the aim was to achieve a vibrant and active centre, realistically it would not be able to accommodate everybody’s needs.    Mr Matt McCreith (GT3 Architects) explained the rationale behind the proposed layout of the site.  It was important that the three blocks were connected with each other and, unlike the existing building, accessible.   The new building would be efficient, user-friendly and easy to navigate.  Members viewed slides that showed the layout of the ground and first floors and the materials that the team was proposing to use.  

Mr Thompson advised that the recommended option for the pool was for a 1.2-metre fixed profile.   Adding a moveable floor for half of the pool would add about £700,000 to the costs and would make little or no difference to the amount of revenue generated. 

Councillor S B Blair commented that she liked the idea of having a splashpad area with inflatables which would reflect Tides’ history and previous use.   Councillor J P Loffman also welcomed the inclusion of a splashpad and wanted to see the café and pool area connected.  Councillor C D Zosseder stated that splashpads were good for young families and fully supported having one.   Councillor M Bates concurred, seeking reassurance that one could be installed on a permanent basis.  Mr Steve Rose (Alliance Leisure Services) confirmed that a specialist contractor had seen the size, layout and location of the pool and was happy that a splashpad could be accommodated. 

The SPM reminded Members that it was the Dover District leisure centre at Whitfield that provided the district’s facilities for competitive swimming, such as galas.   One of the things that had emerged from the public engagement was a desire for Tides to be different. 

RESOLVED: That the update be noted.  

To receive an update on the emerging business case and capital costs.

Mr Tom Pinnington ran through the facility mix.   The 6-lane pool option with a 100-station gym, 16 toning tables, two multi-activity studios and a spin studio would cost £19.45 million (and £19.2 million for the 5-lane option).  The existing facility generated no revenue due to the annual subsidy of £250,000 paid by the Council to Your Leisure (YL) to run the centre.  In contrast, a new 6-lane facility could be expected to generate £500,000 in management fees paid by the operator to the Council to run the facility.  The 5-lane option would not generate as much revenue which would reduce the amount that could be borrowed, thus widening the funding gap.   The current predicted funding deficit with the 6-lane option was £77,750.   He confirmed that these figures had been tested with operators who were comfortable with them, subject to the finer details.   It was possible that the tender process would establish that some operators were willing to pay a higher management fee which would clearly be a positive development in terms of affordability.

In response to Councillor Zosseder who mentioned the closure of Folkestone leisure centre in July, Mr Pinnington advised that the calculations presented to the PAG were based on the current fees and pricing levels at Whitfield.  In respect of Cozenton Park leisure centre in Medway, he clarified that the facility had been managed in-house rather than by an external operator.   The SPM added that the centre had a lane pool and leisure pool with flume and splashpad, and she understood that the management had been forced to double the entrance fee to cover the cost of providing leisure water which had discouraged people from using the facility.

Councillor Blair queried whether adding a moveable floor at £700,000 would open up a different market and allow the Council to borrow more on the basis of increased revenue.  Mr Pinnington cautioned against it, explaining that, whilst adding flexibility was good, it was likely to displace other activities that generated revenue.  The calculations already assumed that the pool would be well used and generating money.   Although a moveable floor would extend the offer, the impact on revenue was unlikely to be significant. 

The Head of Finance and Investment clarified that the borrowing figures were based on a 50-year loan.  

RESOLVED: That the update be noted.

The recommendation is attached.

RESOLVED:   That, under Section 100(A)(4) of the Local Government Act 1972, the

public be excluded during consideration of the following item of business on the grounds that it involves the likely disclosure of exempt information as defined in paragraph 3 of Schedule 12A of the Local Government Act 1972.

To receive an update on operator lease discussions.

The SPM advised that YL had a 5-year lease to run the centre which would expire on 31 March 2025.   Tides was a complex issue as the building was reaching the end of its life and plant was failing on a regular basis, leading to unplanned closures of the pool and changing facilities.  For example, the drainage pumps had failed recently and although it had been possible to repair one of the pumps, it had been necessary to try and source the other from Holland.  There had been a downturn in the use of the centre because the flume was not operating and the wave pool had not worked for many years.  In addition, the uptake in swimming lessons was low.   There was no question that the customer offer and level of service had deteriorated whilst operating costs remained high. 

Mr Simon Molden (The Sports Consultancy) advised that YL’s operating figures for 2023/24 indicated that income of £1.1 million had been received against operational costs of £1.5 million.  The income to date in 2024/25 was £600,000.  Overall, the numbers swimming and spending money in the café had dropped off, whilst the number of people using the tennis centre and sports hall were holding up.  

The SPM advised that discussions had been held with YL regarding the possibility of a new one-year lease from 1 April 2025.  Several options had been investigated, the first one being the pool operating until October 2025 and thereafter dryside only, i.e. sports hall, tennis centre and an alternative gym offer.  Mr Molden advised that YL had sought funding of £560,000.  The second option excluded alternative gym provision and for this option YL had sought funding of £600,000.  The SPM confirmed that the Council was not in a position to provide that level of funding, and continuing with discussions was not therefore a realistic option.  An alternative option was to talk to Places Leisure which operated the leisure centre at Whitfield.   

The Head of Finance and Investment clarified that closing the building would have implications for business rates.  YL was a charity which enjoyed business rates relief of 80%. There would be a relief period whilst buildings were vacant, but the Council would eventually become liable for the business rates which would be in the region of £200,000 per annum.

The SPM recommended that, due to the substantial costs associated with operating the pool, and the reduced usage levels and standard of service on offer, the pool’s closure should be brought forward and commence from 1 April 2025, aligning with the expiry of YL’s lease on 31 March 2025.

Members discussed the risks in keeping the pool open when the only working drainage pump could fail again, user numbers during the week were low and the high costs involved in providing a sub-standard service.  Alternative facilities such as Dover District leisure centre and the Duke of York’s Royal Military School could be explored, with children shuttled there by minibus.   There was recognition that the pool was  ...  view the full minutes text for item 28.

Following the conclusion of the item of business for which the press and public were excluded pursuant to Part 1 of Schedule 12A of the Local Government Act 1972, it is recommended that Members pass a resolution for the readmittance of the press and public.

RESOLVED: That the press and public be readmitted to the meeting.

To receive an update on the proposed logistics plan and facilities remaining open.

Members were shown slides that demonstrated how the site could be organised to allow some continuity of services.  For example, there could be outside toilets to allow the sports hall and tennis centre to remain open, whilst the old nursery site could be used as a site compound.  There would be 6-8 weeks of potential disruption to refurbish the existing block.  The gym was in a part of the building to be demolished, subject to planning permission which was anticipated in September.   Beyond that, the gym could only be accommodated in the sports hall or tennis centre. 

The SPM advised that the timing of closing the gym probably sat alongside the pool closure.  Trying to continue the gym beyond March when there were different groups using the sports hall and tennis centre would inevitably end up with a poor service being offered in these spaces. 

The Project Manager advised that work had started on looking at the needs of those using the centre and matching them with other facilities in the district, and how best to communicate with users whilst services were disrupted.

Councillor Blair commented that people would return to the pool as there were few alternatives.  However, people would continue going elsewhere once the gym closed as there were so many alternatives.  She thought it was sensible to keep the sports hall and tennis centre as they were.  The SPM advised that operators were of the view that it would be more difficult to get pool users back because parents tended to stick to a routine for their children’s swimming lessons.  On the other hand, gym goers were more flexible about moving but were more likely to return if the gym was a good one.

RESOLVED: That the update be noted.

To receive a brief update on project risks and programme.

Mr Thompson ran through the work programme and key dates which were:

·         Present RIBA Stage 2 report to Cabinet – 13 January 2025

·         Planning Submission – May 2025

·         Cabinet approval for main contract – September 2025

·         Works start on site (temporary facilities/demolition) – November 2025

·         Target completion date – May 2027

He also highlighted the key risks of the project which were:

·         Working on existing structure where its exact condition and capability were unknown

·         The presence of asbestos would not be known until a survey had been carried out once the building had closed.

·         Keeping an ageing and energy inefficient building open was a risk when plant and structural failures were likely.

·         Whilst the inflationary pressures of the last 12-24 months were easing, some key packages of works were still affected by inflation and the availability of materials and resources.

·         Ground/site conditions and potential split-level buildings created risks and, with demolition works, difficulties in forecasting and planning

 RESOLVED: That the report be noted.

To discuss and agree options for recommendation to Cabinet.

Members commented that consultation had gone well and that a good level of public engagement had been achieved. 

They were also of the view that the design and concept of the new building married up well with the history and heritage of the site.

Councillor Beer asked that the hoardings erected around the site should show people what they would be getting.  She also commented about the toilets in the foyer which were inadequate and asked that they be looked at.  

RESOLVED:   It was recommended to Cabinet:

(a)  That the swimming pool should be closed from 1 April 2025.

(b)  That the six-lane pool option with a Sport England profile (allowing the use of inflatables) and toddler splashpad should be progressed. 

To discuss future meeting dates.

Members noted that meetings were likely to take place in mid/late February and early April.